The Bookish Hour

Interview with Author: Kaylie Smith

• Jor & Fab • Season 1 • Episode 39

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So completely grateful to be able to interview the lovely Kaylie Smith who take us on a remarkable journey through the gothic landscapes of "Phantasma." 

In a captivating conversation, we discuss the whirlwind of writing and releasing multiple book projects, and how to maintain distinct characters and narratives across different works. Reflections on transitioning from a private individual to a public-facing career offer a glimpse into the challenges and rewards of embracing unexpected online visibility and success.

Our discussion also touches on the deeply personal themes of mental health and queerness in Kaylie's writing. Looking ahead, Kaylie shares exciting news about upcoming projects, including a thrilling angel and demon trilogy set to launch in summer 2026. 

Join us as we uncover the essence of Kaylie's creative journey and the bright future that lies ahead.

Follow Kaylie on IG: @kaylsmoon

Cover Art by: Fabienne and Jordan
Contact email: thebookishhourpod@gmail.com
Intro/Outro music: Season Two: Ramaramaray by Aiyo via Epidemic Sound Season One: Sweet Psycho via TikTok’s Offical Sound Studio on Capcut
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Podcast: @thebookishhourpod
Fabienne: @oxonheart
Jordan: @sipsoffiction

Jordan:

Welcome to the bookish hour with JustJor, Author of a book that you've probably heard of before. This book was also featured in one of September's Book of the Month picks. Perfect for spooky season and fall, and really any time For those gothic lovers. If you're like me and had a crush on Danny Phantom, then Phantasma is a book for you. It's a book that I'm freaking obsessed with. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Kaylee Smith, Welcome Hi.

Kaylie Smith:

Oh my gosh, I am literally so excited to be here.

Jordan:

I'm so excited for you to be here, I just like.

Kaylie Smith:

I'm so excited. No, I know. When my postess reached out she was like they love your book. She sent me a little episode y'all did before and I was just like stop, you're the cutest. Thank you so much for having me.

Jordan:

Oh my god, no, thank you so much for coming me. Oh my god, no, thank you so much for coming on. I am freaking obsessed. I, oh my gosh. So a little side note I see your, your book came out oh my gosh, what.

Jordan:

In September, but I can't remember the day I was going to the bookstore days. So you know how sometimes the bookstore will like release books before they're out, even though they're like not supposed to. Yeah, I was going to the bookstore like every single day days before, because I wanted your book. So I was like, and, and then I went to the register pretending to be that like ditzy blonde, being like oh, do you have phantasma? Like I've seen people like with it. And they're like oh, like, let me see if I can find it. And I've seen people like with it and they're like oh, like, let me see if I can find it. And they're like I can't find it. And they're like oh, it's not even out back out yet. And then they were like oh well, it's in the back. Like, let me go get it. And I was like oh, thank you so much.

Kaylie Smith:

No, I know I was like I need it. This was me, as a teenager, making my mom like go to stores to get my favorite releases a week before they were out. I would do that all the time. Um, like, I would do the same thing. I'd pretend as if I didn't know the date and, like, had it written down in my calendar. But, um, that's so sweet, oh my gosh.

Jordan:

And then I like I'm honest, I know like this is like phantasma, but I'm so excited for the second one. I like can't wait. April is so far away.

Kaylie Smith:

I don't you wait, you know it's actually so funny. So everyone keeps saying that and um, which is like I totally get it as a reader. But, like as an author, I like the dichotomy of people being like I read your book in like 24 hours and I'm like this is hilarious because it took like two years to write. But I used to do that to authors all the time. You're like oh my god, when's the next one come out? And they'd be like dot dot dot. The first one came out today, I know.

Jordan:

Yeah, I'm not an author. I can't like relate to that. But I am like I can relate to the. I can't wait for the second one, even though and then at this point, because it's like I did I was lucky enough to get the ARC to read it before that. I'm like book one isn't even released and I need book two, and I was like this is the struggle no, I totally understand, like to be honest, like being on the reader side versus author side.

Kaylie Smith:

It's like knowing how long publishing takes. I feel so bad because I remember being that desperate for books, like. So, my, I understand everyone. I'm so sorry. I did turn in edits though, so we're we're like at the finish line.

Jordan:

It's, she's coming did turn in edits though. So we're we're like at the finish line. It's, she's coming. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I'm so excited, um, okay, so we'll kind of dive into the episode. I do like to start every episode with a good thing that happened to you, like this week or like in the past, like weeks. If you wouldn't mind sharing something. It could be book related, it could be not book related, it could be anything.

Kaylie Smith:

Yeah, um well, I feel like two things, two big things just happened. First, I just got back from my very first adult con. It was a romantic con in Orlando. It was. My favorite thing in the world is to meet readers, and Phantasma, honestly, has not been out that long, but like I was there and so many readers had already read the book, like we had a line, and I was just like this yeah, it's just like career highlight, because it's like I can't totally believe this is happening. So that was so surreal to really see the effect in person.

Jordan:

And then yesterday I announced my new series, so I got so excited I got so but of course, like I sent the questions to your publicist for this interview literally the day before I saw you announce that series and I was like oh darn it.

Kaylie Smith:

No, I know we can tell we can talk about it later, though for sure you'll, you'll be the first one because I haven't. I know I haven't gotten a chance to talk about it with anyone yet um, and I'm really excited oh, my gosh, which.

Jordan:

But then okay. So before we actually dive into the questions, I'm very curious is it hard to keep all these characters separate, if you're like, because I know you just announced this series but then you have like book two and then you just like book one just announced like. Is that hard to like keep track?

Kaylie Smith:

honestly. No, mostly because, okay, I don't know if this is like freaky or like how other authors find it, um, but it's they're like people in my head, like fully formed people, so I just they never really like cross over. For me also, when I am drafting, it's very like locked in in a cave. I'm in my office right now, like I write at my desk, like no one talked to me for 24 hours at a time, um, and like I have. I have all of my character work and like my outlines and stuff next to like my document. So it's just, I don't know, it's like tunnel vision, you know what I mean like when I'm, when I'm in a book and when I'm drafting it, and also I do have the memory of a goldfish. So, like the second, a book is written and done, I kind of forget it.

Kaylie Smith:

Like it's just like, but then that's kind of helpful. Yeah, yeah, no, it is. It genuinely is, because then I feel like nothing bleeds when I'm writing a series. That's the only time that's a little tough, because I'll have to like have I have annotated copies of all my books and I'll have to like go through through and like make sure I look at all the details, like do like back research because genuinely I try so hard I cannot keep anything in my head like that's what, that's my whole entire life. So, yeah, but it can be a like useful tool. So my lack of memory is a pro.

Jordan:

I mean it works, it works Okay. So then I'm gonna say, like my good week is interviewing you because I have to like for just I'm just gonna say that Okay. So now we'll dive into the questions. They are broken up into three parts, so I have like writing author, then reading and then personal. So the first question I did kind of pair like a lot of questions in one, um, but when and how did you know you wanted to be an author? Did you always want to be an author or did at some point you want to be something else or do something else, not be?

Kaylie Smith:

yeah, I think it was. Oh, it was always just um, I don't know. I feel like I always just kind of assumed it about myself that I would do something with books. So I really, really, really loved reading as a kid. Um, that would be because my grandfather which he was my favorite person in the entire world and he was pretty much one of the only people who read to me like my mom is not a reader at all and he raised me for the first few years of my life. He, he, helped her and so every single day, every single day, like all of elementary and middle school, we would go to the library after he picked me up from school. So it was just like I just always, I always loved books. I was always surrounded by books and I think it was just always kind of like I didn't. I didn't know what being an author was, but I just assumed that I would end up doing something with books.

Kaylie Smith:

And then, when I was 13, I read um, I was 13, I read um. I read City of Bones by Cassandra Clare and I love that series. Like yeah, no, yeah, like I mean, it was eighth grade, it was so formative, that was the first time, um, eighth grade was like the first time I had really started reading for myself and picking my own things. Um, like, I read ironically because the movie just came out but, like, scott Westerfeld's Uglies movies were the first series I ever like completed on my own um and like, and so I just got like voraciously into reading.

Kaylie Smith:

And when I read Cassandra Clear's book, that was the first time that I like started seeking out fandom, because I was like I have so many theories and thoughts I desperately need someone else to talk about it. And when I saw, like the online fandom space, I was like this is what I want to do, like I desperately want to create something that brings other people to want to talk about it with their friends. And I think that was the first time like in my brain. I was like I'm going to be an author, like it's going to happen, so yeah that's kind of cool like yeah, I never really.

Jordan:

I um like did you, were you looking at? Like I don't like fan fiction for those series. Is that like?

Kaylie Smith:

yeah, it was like fanfictionnet huge, huge at the time. Um, that was. That was like my a03. I would um say, and then, like tumblr was kind of like we were starting in like the myspace vlog era. Tumblr I'm really aging myself here. I am still in my 20s. I like to hold on to that. Um, but I am aging myself. Um, yeah, so it just like it was just those spaces and people making art and things like that. And also I would start writing like my own books for like my classmates and like passing them around. I actually have an old classmate from a small town, so tracking each other down is pretty easy. But an old classmate reached out to me a couple months ago to like congratulate me on my success, and she was also. I found a box full of like the books you used to write us. Do you want me to like send you them? So she like, she like sent me my old stuff and it's just. It's just like I always had that desire, like I just always wanted to entertain people.

Jordan:

So yeah, so it's. It was like ingrained in you you were gonna be an author. Oh yeah, it was gonna happen some way.

Kaylie Smith:

It was like ingrained in you. You were going to be an author. Oh yeah, it was going to happen some way. I don't know when or how.

Jordan:

That's so cool. Okay, so then, what have you found to be the most challenging in being an author?

Kaylie Smith:

Honestly, I think it's just.

Kaylie Smith:

I think the more success you get, the more being perceived gets to be maybe slightly difficult.

Kaylie Smith:

I am very introverted, um, I love people so much and I think I'm very good with people but, like I was just so used to not really thinking of like anyone knowing of me or my work or anything, and now it's like it's very public facing and I feel like that's just a different thing to adjust to.

Kaylie Smith:

Like now it's sort of like I say things, and not even bad things, but just like super innocuous, like opinions or like post things online and like it affects people, like positively, negatively, like, however it is, and it's just sort of like I think that's an adjustment when you have a public facing job. So I think I think that's been like the hardest part so far. It's like it's also like straddling straddling the line of being like very, very grateful and also being like how do I kind of keep some things for myself and I'm not even like like a big author or anything, but you know what, know what I mean, like you can kind of feel the shift a little bit. So that's it's definitely been like a balancing act yeah, no, and I get that.

Jordan:

And to be an author, it's like you know that you are going to like you will be somewhat pub, like public, and your life will like and your work kind of will be available to all. But you're still a person. You still have like the right to like a private life for like what you want, and that's got to be tough to like manage and decide too yeah, it's, it's sort of.

Kaylie Smith:

It's kind of like, um, like, for example, I like going online.

Kaylie Smith:

I can be jump scared a little bit sometimes now Because, like I think the algorithm because people use my full name, like in a caption, because you know they say like by the author, and so the algorithm will just show me things, no matter like what it is, and it's just like, oh, this is like different, um, like like just reviews of like the book and stuff, um, which is like totally fine obviously, but like now I'm just kind of like the book and stuff, which is like totally fine obviously, but like now I'm just kind of like okay. So getting on TikTok is a different experience now and I so I think you know, so I'm just like this is, it's just so, I think, interesting. And also sometimes I'm kind of like I think it's hard to feel like you deserve things when like good things happen to you, like big good things happen to you. So that's been like a like training myself to be like it's okay, that like I like I'm proud of an accomplishment or things like that, cause I'm just not used to that, you know.

Jordan:

And I feel like, since you kind of I know you said you're still in your 20s, but are you still a millennial?

Kaylie Smith:

I am.

Jordan:

Yeah, okay, I feel like we grew up in that age of like, you can't, like, you're always questioning if you're good enough and you can't accept that you're like where you should be. I feel like that's like the mindset or like the era we grew up in, because I know that's like for myself and I'm not I'm not an author, I'm not doing any of that, but I still feel like that yeah, no, for sure it's.

Kaylie Smith:

I it's. I don't even know what. I don't know what happened in all of our childhoods. Um, but you're right, like I, I think that's like a pretty common thread because, like, even when my friends or my partner gets like a, like a job, like what is it A promotion or something like that, and he just has that moment of like, but why me Like, what have I done? That's special enough to get that. And I'm just like, why are we all like this?

Jordan:

We should be like heck yeah, I deserve it.

Kaylie Smith:

Like this is like what, but it's not, it's not my first go to yeah, exactly yeah. So I think it's like it's just, it's an adjustment all around, just kind of like learning how to do something public facing and like who I want to be to people and stuff like that, but in a good way, like never. I never feel like super bogged down by it. I think it's just a part of the job that you wouldn't necessarily like expect, right, Because you're just like oh, I'm just writing like my silly little books, but it's a lot more robust than that.

Jordan:

There's like a learning curve, yeah, so what advice do you have for aspiring authors?

Kaylie Smith:

So, what advice do you have for aspiring authors? Yeah, honestly, I think my biggest piece of advice is to not look, go searching for criticism ever. Stay away from that. I like that. And then I think, just especially if you're in a trad pub space, you need to put out a product that you're proud of first and foremost, and not let yourself be pushed to put out anything that you are not fully a thousand percent happy with. Fully a thousand percent happy with um updates change, uh, people will always try to put things out quicker and faster, but at the end of the day, your name is going to be on it and you're going to get criticism either way. So at least if you're getting criticism on something you know that you did your absolute best on and that you truly love, it's a lot easier. You know what I mean oh, I, I like that.

Jordan:

I. I'm not gonna name any names, but I know a couple years ago I read a Halloween book and you can clearly tell they rushed to get it out in time for like Halloween and I was it just read like that and it's just kind of like and I, I get it, you're trying to hit this year's deadline. That was like years ago, but I was like, oh, yeah, I think too it's like publishing is a business.

Kaylie Smith:

Unfortunately, you have to like think of it like that. So, um, I'm very, very grateful my team for Phantasma has genuinely been like so incredible. It's kind of hard to believe sometimes. Um, I adore every single person who's worked on that book and I'm so proud of that book because we all kind of gave each other the time and like we worked on it, um, how I knew it needed to be. So I think I think that's the biggest thing. I think when you're, when you're first published, you feel so grateful to just be there that you kind of let people like push you, um in places or directions. But it's like it's okay to stand your ground, like it's okay to say no to things. So, yeah, that's always my advice to aspiring authors like say no, like what's the worst? That's going to happen, it's fine.

Jordan:

That I like. That I mean cause it's it's true, though too Like yeah, Okay, so how do you process slash deal with negative book reviews?

Kaylie Smith:

Well, like I said, I do not go looking for them ever.

Jordan:

I like that.

Kaylie Smith:

Yeah, I do get jump scared but, to be okay, to be honest, I feel like it's. It's easier to look at it in two ways. One, I have definitely disliked things that I've read for like no other reason than I just disliked them, and I kind of put myself in that position. Other people are going to feel that same exact way about my book. There's just like no rhyme or reason.

Kaylie Smith:

Sometimes, whatever criticisms they have for my work might be exactly what someone who loved my work the exact opposite. Right, and I always think about it as if someone who hated my books, if I changed all the things they hated about it, would it then lower the quality of someone who loved it? You're kind of thinking of as, like, I have a one star review, I have a five star review. If I try to do everything to raise that one star review, I might be lowering that five star review. It's impossible to please everyone and I just sort of I just sort of think about it. It's when you're putting out art for consumption. It's just sort of the way things go.

Jordan:

So diving into, like the phantasma questions how did you come up with the idea for phantasma and did it evolve into a different story from when you first thought of it? Because, like I know you said too, like you've been working on it for like two years and the idea came to you in 2021, I believe yeah, okay, so I had.

Kaylie Smith:

So I actually have a fine arts degree, um, with a, also a minor in art history. I that's a long story. I was originally a creative writing major in college. I did not like the MFA program and I was like I could do this without it. So it's fine and I did so it's totally fine. But I I loved my art history classes so much and I also had literature classes that kind of like kind of went hand in hand, and in one of them we read Dante's Inferno and I became absolutely obsessed with it and I literally have my old college notebooks, um, that I pulled out when I was sort of like forming this idea, and so I had all these notes on like the circles of hell from Inferno.

Kaylie Smith:

And then I had a separate notebook from one of my art history classes that we studied Phantasmagoria, um, for anyone who might not know what that is, look it up, it's really cool. It's it's like a kind of yeah, it's kind of like a um, I guess the very condensed version is, some of it would be like projections of like, like, like spirits, ghosts, things like that. It was like sort of like a medium like that where they would use, like ghostly production projections. But the definition of phantasmagoria is just an image that feels like it could be and like dream, like whether it's real or not right. So it's sort of like in your mind and I was just fascinated with it. I also was just fascinated with the word, like I'm a big word person and so like I had like I literally had it written down was like this would be such a good title for a book.

Kaylie Smith:

Um, and so, years go by, I write my YA series and then I was writing something else with my agent. Um, it was my first adult book, but it was fully different and I thought it was going to be a standalone. And then my agent and I, in the middle of edits, were like this actually needs to be expanded, it needs to be at least a duology. There's a lot of stuff going on. And I was just I w.

Kaylie Smith:

I was really sick at the time and I was just like, oh, this is, I need to like sit down and reform this, and it was just going to be like a huge overhaul and I was just like I need to like pump the brakes a little bit and my OCD was getting really bad and I was telling this to a friend of mine and they were like literally that sounds like a horror story, affectionately, and I was just like instantly like hold on. I was like you're right, like it is kind of like a constant. I'm so used to it I don't think about it that way, but I'm like to other people that probably is absolutely terrifying. So I was like I feel like there are some elements here. And that's when I remembered the whole phantasmagoria thing. So I sort of just like marrying those two sort of elements together and I started sort of forming this and I was like it just it needs like one more thing.

Kaylie Smith:

And I was sort of doing this like demon lore and the necromancy stuff and I was just like you know what, I should go back to Dante's Inferno, like this would be such a fun trial book. And so like it was just those three elements, like completely separate points of my life, that just ended up like coming together and creating this story and that was very long winded. But I feel like sometimes books just kind of do that, you know, like different pieces of them click together for me. And I was so obsessed with the idea and I was like this could be a standalone. I could do this. I pitched it to my agent. It was like three in the morning and she texted me back and was like yes, you need to write this. So I put that other project fully on the back burner and was like let's, let's do it Full steam ahead.

Jordan:

Oh my god. Well, I, because, like I do have to say, this story is like, unlike anything I've like read before, and how you come like came up with, just like the whole idea and like the whole plot of it. It's just like.

Kaylie Smith:

I'm so glad I really really did want it to feel like um. My goal was that it felt sort of familiar, like you were walking into a place that maybe you remembered but like fully surprised you at the same time. I know that's like so specific, but I I was just like I just could. I could feel it. It's it's definitely like an homage to some of my favorite pieces of media from like the 90s, like spooky media things and so like. I think it feels familiar in that way. But I was just like I want this to be so fun, like um, I want all of the trials to be something no one's ever experienced before.

Jordan:

So it was really fun to craft and then like how, like we'll leave this spoiler free, but like with the ending, and like how it ties to the beginning, you're just like what I'm so awesome, it was so cool, I'm so glad.

Kaylie Smith:

Yeah, the ending, actually chapter 51 specifically was like one of the very last pieces of the puzzle we my editor and I kind of put together. Um, and when I tell you, that moment was like oh, my okay, like we got it, like wow, yeah, so that's really fun for everyone listening.

Jordan:

You check chapter 51, you'll understand um, okay, so Ophelia and Blackwell did you draw inspiration for them through other characters in like tv or other books? Um, or did you put some of yourself in them? Like kind of curious how you came up with both of them.

Kaylie Smith:

Um, blackwell, I would say as a little bit of an homage. A little bit, I had a crush on Danny Phantom growing up so I was just sort of like he was already going to be a Phantom and so when I was kind of just signing his character design I was like, oh, this would be like a really cute little like homage to that. Um, as well as spike from buffy the vampire slayer I'm a huge buffy girl um, I know of it but I've never seen it and I'm actually very disappointed.

Jordan:

I'm re-watching charmed because charmed was like my oh, that was like my show when I was a kid and I was obsessed with it. So I'm rewatching that. But I was thinking how I need to pry Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Kaylie Smith:

No, that's your homework. I was about to say that you have to. It's so good, there's just something about it Huge Buffy fan growing up. There's just something about it. Huge Buffy fan growing up. And Spike, of course, was sort of like the one she was not supposed to be with. It's very like Dame and Salvatore. Their personalities aren't the same, but it's sort of like that. It's like a little bit of the forbidden element which I love, so a little bit of that. And then, like I always say, he kind of has has this like Cheshire cat quality about him, like he speaks in riddles, a little bit intentionally to drive her slightly mad, so like bits and pieces. But he, he was kind of fully formed for me, like I always sort of knew exactly what I wanted to accomplish with him.

Kaylie Smith:

Ophelia was different. Um, originally she was an only child. So I, yeah, actually, when we were on submission with Fantasma, it was a version. It was a version that she did not have a sibling and a couple of the editors were the ones who were like she should have a sister, like we need like an extra layer of motivation, and I started dreaming of Genevieve and I was like, oh my gosh, I feel like there's so much potential with this character um okay, sorry, I have.

Jordan:

I have to jump in because I and I know too, this one is technically a standalone, because it is like there yeah, we'll just leave it at that. Did you not think of like a book to at all kind of thing?

Kaylie Smith:

when Genevieve. When Genevieve came on the page, I knew instantly that she was a story I wanted to expand, I think because people's perception of her versus like who she is in her head, I think are going to be very, a little bit different, and I think that's very fun. And so when we were like halfway through this new version, um, after I sold the book and like really started crafting what would end up being like the final book, um, I knew like halfway through I was like, oh, genevieve's gonna get her own story like um, immediately. And I always knew I wanted this to be an expanded world. So it was never gonna be like a pure standalone.

Kaylie Smith:

But I like interconnected standalones. I love something. You can read one and done out of order depending on your mood. You can binge all of them, um, I like the versatility of that. So I always kind of had a feeling I was going to do something with her Um as soon as, as soon as she was like sort of born. But, um, I do adore her a lot. So I'm really, really glad that that is the direction we went in. For sure, I'm very excited for her story.

Jordan:

Well, I was. When I was reading the book I mean, since everyone knows like there is a book too and we know it's Genevieve's story, I was very nervous that you were going to kill her off in Phantasma and I was like like sweating. I was so scared.

Kaylie Smith:

Actually everyone said that someone tagged me in something the other day. It was so funny they were, they were so nervous, they were like what is genevieve doing this whole time? And then you sort of get to the end and you get to that point and like you're like oh, um, and like obviously things come together and click. But um, I do think that was. I think it's very funny because people are very worried about her um, as they should be. But everyone should be worried. Yeah, um, but she goes through it in her book too.

Jordan:

So I I'm so excited, which I and I know you probably can't get into like too much detail, but I'm assuming it's kind of like a whole different book than this one.

Kaylie Smith:

Yeah, it's very. I keep telling everyone it's okay, it's very aesthetically different. I'm trying to prepare everybody. So I would say it's like Phantasma and Enchantra are two sides of the same coin, but they're very, they're like sister novels. So ophelia is very like doom and gloom, death, necromancy, gothic, like um bloody. And genevieve's personality is quite the opposite um, she wants adventure and she wants to travel and she doesn't really want anything to do with that like she's so over it. So hers is more um, the aesthetics of it is more like enchanting, like ruthless um, a little bit of like labyrinth if anyone's ever seen um like Jennifer Connelly, um, also a formative movie, um, so good. So it's this like enchanted Italian estate and they're playing like a. It's a different kind of game Less blood, more masquerade balls, oh my gosh, we're getting more and more excited.

Kaylie Smith:

Yeah, because I just I like the versatility, um, and also I think some people like they don't love gore or like horror elements and stuff, so this kind of gives, it's like you made it through and you liked it, but you're like that was your least favorite aspect of phantasma.

Jordan:

I'm like here you go like more magic oh fair, but that I, oh I loved everything about this book, but I know too like I know Genevieve's story is going to be completely different and I know I'm gonna love her story too, but I just I feel like this it was also like the first book I read in getting into like spooky season, and I think it's like the perfect book for that yeah, and like this is like your opener, like your halloween tbr, um, which I love, like, yeah, that was the goal.

Kaylie Smith:

I was like I'm gonna make a book that everyone during halloween is like. You know what we should reread? Phantasma, that was.

Jordan:

That was the the idea and I know I will be rereading it because I, well, and I think like and I know you kind of mentioned your other series in the sense of like that was supposed to be like more books, because I finished this one and maybe this is just me, because I love the world, but I was like man, I wish there were more Like I would love, like to continue this story. I mean, you do like wrap it up and there's no like need to continue the story, but have you ever, did you ever like think about when writing it to make it more books?

Kaylie Smith:

I have so many plans. Yeah, um, also, it's so funny right after, right after this, I have to film a little announcement to put on my instagram. But there are going to be more books in the wiki game series. Um, at least two more. So books three and four have been picked up. Um, oh, my god, I'm so excited. Yeah, so there's, I have. I have so many plans.

Kaylie Smith:

This is sort of how I've like, even though I have a different series right, I know everyone's the like. My friends call it the KLU, the Kaylee literary universe, which is so ridiculous. Um, I love it. No, I love it. It's getting. It's getting like a lot like. I have a new trilogy coming out which, again, we can talk about at the end of this. But, um, but this is sort of something these books I sort of see as like doing in between, as like palette cleansers for both myself and my reader, my readers, like giving you a world that's familiar and like continuing all the little like aspects of the side characters that you might want to see. And also, I am not done with ophelia and blackwell. I know readers are not done with ophelia and blackwell, so it's like I will always come back to them. There are totally plans. I it's just like one of those things that is sort of a waiting game Like.

Jordan:

I'll wait, I can wait, I can wait. Okay, so that was like a really long side note. But the next question you mentioned in your letter to the reader at the end of the book that with your experience with OCD and writing Ophelia's experience with OCD has brought you healing. But were there or was there any part where you were nervous or scared to write about your experience and like Ophelia's experience with OCD?

Kaylie Smith:

Um, not necessarily, I think.

Kaylie Smith:

I think when it comes to talking about any sort of thing like mental health or like in my first series I talk a lot about like my experience with queerness and like the journey of that and stuff, I think there's always sort of like a well, there's someone who's not going to like it or relate or be like this does not apply to me, be like this does not apply to me, and so in that way I do get nervous sometimes, but I think my biggest thing was just keeping it as authentic to me as humanly possible, like these are verbatim my experiences and, honestly, the messages I get about that aspect of the book specifically are so worth anything else that anyone might have ever said about it.

Kaylie Smith:

Um, like it's so touching I I know for me I did not grow up reading anything about OCD or like really seeing it in media and stuff and like it's interesting to navigate when you don't even realize some of the symptoms you have belong to that disorder, so I was just like let me, just, let me just put all of this experience on page Um, and it's it's one of the things like I'm sorry if you relate to it, but also we're not alone, Like you know what I mean. Um, so yeah, I. I don't think I was necessarily scared. I think nervous is maybe the right, the right feeling sometimes, but it was so worth it I wouldn't change anything. I love that, that's my favorite thing of the book, and just the response from readers who also have the disorder has just been so touching, Like I could not be more grateful.

Jordan:

So yeah, oh, that that's good. I know I don't experience OCD myself, but I know I have like intrusive thoughts a lot and I know like my intrusive thoughts are very, very dark. And so when people try to and I under like no one's like any like everybody's experience is their own, but when someone tries to do like intrusive thoughts and it's like eating dessert before dinner, I'm like I can't, can't relate and I like I saw this reel of a girl who was like who said the same thing of like this girl had an intrusive thought of like eating dessert before dinner and then she's like my intrusive thoughts are like closing my eyes for like five seconds on the highway and I was like that I can relate to that because I I never talk about my intrusive thoughts because they're so dark and they're not what anybody else talks about, that I'm just like. I just it's like hard to explain to somebody that like doesn't know, yeah, experience it yeah, it was.

Kaylie Smith:

I think that was part of the challenge of writing it too, of being like this is not exaggerated, like at all, like it's genuinely. I'm just having a like just a normal day and like something ridiculous like that, I mean like so dark and stuff, and I think I think the real catch is that I know those are not my thoughts, but I also can't stop them.

Jordan:

Yes, and also too, it's just like you're doing something so menial, like basic, like, so, like it's just so hard to explain, and then all of a sudden it's just there and I'm like, and I remember like the first time I had one and I like didn't know how to explain it and I thought I was going crazy. Yeah, I know no one talks about it.

Kaylie Smith:

Yeah, I exactly. I think in my note too, it was sort of like um, I really want to gently, gently say, like I know people aren't being malicious when they use like oh, they let their intrusive thoughts win or something. I know that's not a malicious thing, it's just sort of like a colloquialism that has like made its way into people's everyday vocabulary, or like how we talk online and stuff like that. But, um, I think it's really important for me to try to remind people that like this is a very real, tangible thing experience that people go through and it is terrifying. Yes, like I. I for me, it was like if I could, just if I could just tell anyone that and like make them aware, and then they start sort of changing how they speak and like they're there. I think that's like what we're here for, like just gently trying to make the world a better place. Um, and so, yeah, it was I.

Kaylie Smith:

Writing that author's note was really so great. It was one of the first things like when we sold it. I was like I have an author's note for this book. I'm not.

Jordan:

yeah, I was so happy you put that in there. I was like, yes, I appreciated the author's note too and too like when you were mentioning it about OCD, because, especially like when I was growing up, everybody would joke that they had OCD if they like to clean things. And I was like and it's actually one of my friends who had mentioned how you worded it that it's like no, this is, you don't have OCD because you like to clean things. That is actually like something that people do experience and it's not on the level that you have it and you shouldn't be joking about it. And I like appreciate my friend saying that to like her friend, because I know that that's tough too to like her friend, because I know that that's tough too.

Kaylie Smith:

so it's just kind of like just even making people aware of that, saying, yeah, I think that's the most important thing too, because it's like, when you don't know things, you just don't know things like, especially when everyone else is saying stuff like that around you and like they're using it that way, um, like we use, we use words, and the way we say things, like even slang, like stuff evolves over time, um, and you don't even have like a source.

Kaylie Smith:

All you know is like this is how it's used. So I, I feel like it's it's been so, so nice to be able to like say my piece on it, and I've gotten so many messages who are like thank you for mentioning that, because, like now I know like I won't, I won't refer to things like that anymore by using, and it's like that's that's so great, like again, just making the world a better place, like making people aware of things in the kindest way possible. Because I think sometimes, when we snap at people or, like you know, I don't, I don't want everyone, anyone, to ever feel like they're a horrible, terrible person for something that they just weren't aware of. You know, like that's never my goal.

Jordan:

So, yeah, yeah no, and it's true, because I feel like sometimes people can get defensive and you don't want someone to get defensive, you're just trying to. Oh, nicely aware okay exactly, um, and I okay. So the next, the last question in the reading writing is do you have any writing projects you're working on and can you give us any hints? I I know we kind of like talked about more books in this series that I'm so excited, but I don't know if you want to talk about like the other series or more on that.

Kaylie Smith:

I know we mentioned the wiki games, so I have two more books coming in that series, obviously, which means I have three books coming out next year. Y'all and everyone's's like do you sleep? The answer is no, um, this is all I do, um, but I am really, I'm so excited for those. No one take my excitement for this other series as less excitement for those so excited, but I have a trilogy coming out about, um, angels and demons that I have been waiting to put out for years. This is I have been waiting for the angel and demon trend to come back and I really I knew it was coming. I was like it's gearing up, I can feel it, there's something in the air, and that is absolutely what is happening.

Kaylie Smith:

So in summer 2026, the first book in the trilogy is coming out. It is about a demon girl named Cressida, who is framed for a pretty heinous crime and, in order to prove her innocence, she has, um a certain amount of time to clear her name by tracking down the person who actually committed the crime. And chaperoning her on this mission is an archangel named edelon, who absolutely does not want to be there, who she has definitely attempted to murder several times. Um, and it is. It is just like pure urban fantasy fun. Like I am genuinely so excited. Like every time I think about those characters, I'm just like so ready to share them. Um, I can't wait so yeah, I'm so excited.

Jordan:

I got so excited when you announced that. Well, when people listened to this, this like last month, but I was just like, oh my God, I got so excited. Oh my gosh.

Kaylie Smith:

I it's like one of those passion projects that it was just like. One of these days I'll get back to this I would just write little like one shots for my friends, like in the group chat.

Jordan:

So all of us are just like oh, finally like a full fledged story with the two of them Coming Exactly Okay, so now we'll dive into the reading questions. What is your favorite book and or series? A book you would recommend to anyone and everyone?

Kaylie Smith:

Okay, my first is Howl's Moving Castle, probably, I think, listen, mean, it's so old school and I feel like some people are like, why do you keep telling people to read that? It is such good whimsy fantasy? Um, and I, that is like the first book I really remember like adoring, um, my grandfather read it to me. I'm gonna keep bringing him up, but, um, it was, it's just like. It's just one of those books that I feel like are it's so good, like and formative? Um, and every time I read it it's just very cozy and I love the movie so much. It's also my favorite movie. They're very different stories, um, they're very different versions of the same story, but I love that book.

Kaylie Smith:

I also always recommend sorcery of thorns and how to lose the time war to everybody. Um, if you've so, sorcery of thorns by margaret rogerson, um, it is so good and, uh, this is how you lose the time war is both the weirdest experience and, like, the most beautiful poetic experience I've ever had in a book. It's epistolary and it's from the perspective of two characters like crossing each other throughout time jumps. Um, they're like rivals and they sort of end up falling in love again. It's, it's such an odd. It's hard to even explain. You just have to pick up the book, but you just need to experience it. Yes, exactly like it's just something you have to experience. But those are the ones that I feel like, if you know me, I have probably recommended those books okay, interesting, I'll have to go look at them they're all, they're all.

Kaylie Smith:

One and done too.

Jordan:

So like you don't have to like series, yeah, yeah those are good, those are good um okay, so what is one line of writing, poetry or quote that lives rent-free in your head?

Kaylie Smith:

um, Emily Dickinson has this line that says I am out with lanterns looking for myself, and it is. I remember the first time I read that and I was like, oh yeah, this just changed my brain chemistry. Also, I do see a cat behind you.

Jordan:

Yeah, sorry, that was Luna. Mind you, since you brought it up, I do want to say so. I moved back. We're like living with my mom, so like everything is in one room and Luna definitely just pooped in the litter box. I can smell it. So now she's like. Now I'm going to show my face.

Kaylie Smith:

Oh, she's so cute. I just saw like this fluffy little angel walking behind you. Um, I love a cat. Oh, I love cats. Oh, oh, my, show her face. Oh, my god, hi, angel I love. We could cast her as Poe. We can just bring her into the audition room yes, she is Poe.

Jordan:

Now, um, what was? I don't even remember what I was saying. I get so easily.

Kaylie Smith:

We can just bring her into the audition room.

Kaylie Smith:

Yes, she is phone now. I don't even remember what I was saying. I get so easily distracted by a cat. But, oh, emily Dickinson, yes, okay, back back to the beautiful poetry. That line, yeah, I remember the first time I read it definitely changed me I. Also there is a poem by Robert Frost called nothing gold, gold can stay. I think it's pretty infamously like, um, the inspiration for the outsiders, like stay, go, stay, gold pony boy. I'm pretty sure that's the reference there um, because nothing gold can say. Anyway, if you read that poem I, it literally makes me want to cry every time. I do not even know why, but I read it in like ninth grade lit and it stayed with me all these years for whatever reason. So it's kind of cool.

Jordan:

You know it has like a big impact, yeah, um, oh. Well then, funny, nice segue into what is a book that had the most significant impact on your life, and why?

Kaylie Smith:

either recently or not, um well, gosh, I feel like that's so hard because, like, if we're talking about the book that like honestly made me want to be a writer, it would be Cassandra Clare's books, I think the Clockwork series. Oh man, that really changed me as a person. I don't think I was expecting it at the time either. I was in high school and I was just like I yeah, I, I, I wasn't a reader when I was younger.

Jordan:

It wasn't until I got into college that I really dived into like books. So that's when I read the Mortal Instruments and then Infernal yeah, infernal devices, thank you, and I was just like obsessed with this world she created.

Kaylie Smith:

Yeah, it was. It was one of those things that I was like, oh my God, it just felt like she had explored and knew every single corner of that world in magic system, and I'm not sure I experienced anything like that before Personally. So it was also, again, one of the first series I read. I never really read series before that, like we always read a lot of standalones, so that was that was a really big one for me because I felt like that's what made me want to write books myself. Um, and yeah, I don't know, all these years I it's hard. It's hard to like pinpoint specific books because, again, I have a really bad memory. But, like I know there have been books like um that I finished that I just had to sit with for a really long time because I was just like, oh my god, like that was like um Lainey Taylor, like Daughter of Smoke and Bone. I remember reading that for the first time and I was just like, oh my god, like people write like this, like people have this talent, it's wild. Um.

Jordan:

I haven't read that one, but I a lot of people recommended it to me and I like I know I need to.

Kaylie Smith:

I just haven't recommended it to me and I like I know I need to. I just haven't. She does purple prose in a way that doesn't even really feel like purple. It's so effortless it's. It's a gorgeous book. I her writing is just. I remember finishing it and I was just like I just sat for a while and was like that was wild, actually, like what an experience. Um, yeah, I think just things like that, like I have like moments and stuff.

Jordan:

Okay, so then the the last question in reading is if you could have a literary dinner party with three authors, living or dead, who would you invite and why?

Kaylie Smith:

Um, okay, mary Shelley, that is my queen, um mother of sci-fi gothic. Um, I love her, oh my god, shakespeare, genuinely, because I just have a lot of questions, like just for all the questions, yeah, sir, I have so many questions. Um, I it's like, it's like sort of those things where it's like you know, we had to like analyze stuff for so long and everyone's like it meant this, you meant this, or it's just like so odd, like I love the idea of sitting down with them and being like did you really mean for people to like look this heavily into what color the curtains were?

Jordan:

and I was just thinking that I was just thinking that of that like one meme and they're like, and then the author were. And I was just thinking that I was just thinking that of that like one meme and they're like, and then the author is like no, I just meant that they were blue curtains.

Kaylie Smith:

Right, genuinely, I just like I'm just so, because yes or no I feel like would be a fascinating answer either way. So I feel like that would be really, really fun. And then I'm trying to think of someone alive. I think the issue is that I have this like very staunch objective to never meet my heroes, like like I, like I just I don't know, I just desperately it can go either way and that kind of terrifies me desperately. I'm, it could go either way and that kind of terrifies me. But maybe like, um, I'm looking at my bookshelves as if, as if that would change anything someone will jump out at you.

Kaylie Smith:

I know, oh, you know what. I really would love to meet Carrie Maniscalco. I'm actually such a big fan. I feel like she'd be really, really fun to talk to. She wrote um like Throne of the Fallen Kingdom of the Wicked.

Jordan:

Oh, okay.

Kaylie Smith:

Yeah, I do really really love her books. I feel like that would just be like a fun time. Um, I'm hoping one day maybe, maybe we'll cross paths and stuff. But it's just so funny and I mean this, oh God, I feel like this is going to say be horrible for me to say out loud. But actually a lot of my favorite authors I have met like as peers now, so it was just like it's it's. You know what I mean. Like it's, it's different. So I'm like that is so cool, though that is so cool.

Kaylie Smith:

I'm like that's amazing, but it's like I literally have had dinner with them, so it's. It's sort of like it's. I saw this question and I was just like, oh my god, I have to like really think about that answer um you really have to pick everyone that's unfortunately dead because you met all the living, yeah, like that's. So. It's like I feel like that's also kind of a moment where I like sit down and like oh my god, like I'm here, like I did it, I'm like like that's it's real yeah. That's cool.

Jordan:

That's really cool. So, um, okay, so now we're in personal, which just two questions. So the first one is looking back on your life. What is one value, valuable lesson you've learned?

Kaylie Smith:

I feel like a big thing is that, um, no matter like the very, very tough situations I've been in, or like how bad my mental health might get, like everything will even out and be okay. Like I think I think when I was younger, like before my frontal lobe developed, everything was just so disastrous and there were just really dark moments that I was like I'm never going to get through this, but like there is literally always another side, like the other side of it, it's really going to be fine. Um, we have to calm down and, like you can do things that you do not think you're capable of. I feel like that was really valuable for me to learn, because for a long time, I think I was just like this is where I'm going to be in the same small town for all of my life, like I can't possibly do this, I'm not capable of doing these things, and then I just got up one day and did them, and so I think it was really important for me to know like there is an out and there is a way to get there, and like cannot we cannot focus on those really really low moments um, I don't know if I have.

Kaylie Smith:

It's like, it's like sort of this thing where it's like I think I'm just sort of feeling like a fully grown adult I describe this to people all the time Like I feel like there was sort of a um, a life before and my life now, where I actually feel like very grounded in my own body and existence, and I think I'm still kind of in a moment where I'm trying to decide what I have learned and what I might have to offer like back to like even my younger self, and so it's a really exciting time for me. I feel very, I feel very new. Like I feel like, um, I kind of have just woken up recently and it's it's. It's been terrifying to think that like I didn't feel this way even a few years ago, but like I feel very, very grounded now. So maybe I'll have really good advice in like two to five years so what I'm hearing is another interview, and then we ask this question again.

Kaylie Smith:

Let's put it on the calendar. Yes, um, I don't know, like, do you find? Do you find like you have like something super specific that you're like would you want to pass back like where you are right now? Because I always, I always struggle with that question. I don know why.

Jordan:

I've never really thought of it in the sense of looking back to tell my younger self, but I have realized getting older. So I was about to say, sadly, it's not, sadly, I'm not in my 20s, I'm 31. And I'm actually feeling more like, kind of like you were saying grounded, actually feeling more like kind of like you were saying grounded. I feel more confident and even what I say and like just in my body, and I feel like everybody always like says how they like don't want to grow up, they don't want to get older. But I look, I think back of, like my mindset when I was like 22, 23 and I I was very like insecure and I didn't like that about myself. But so I feel like I've definitely got got like more, more confident. Maybe I can't talk, but I definitely feel better about myself now than I did then yeah, exactly, it's sort of like it's again.

Kaylie Smith:

It's, I feel like the only way I can describe to people. It's like waking up and being like okay, yeah, I don't. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Also, getting older is a privilege and I sort of wish I would have really understood that when I was younger, too, like I feel like every.

Jordan:

But it's weird because I feel like or at least when I was younger and I don't know if this happened to you like thinking back younger, as in like early 20s, everybody that was older was saying like, oh, live up your 20s, because you won't be this age forever.

Jordan:

It goes by so fast. You're gonna be old one day. And I feel like they looked at it as in like like I had the gift of being like young and like youthful instead of being like and I don't kind of care. I would love to like have a conversation with these people now and be like how did you feel when you were yeah, what a whatever age and like were you like more confident in yourself? And I don't, I don't know, but I, I think they just I, I like thought I was supposed to be this like a like amazing human in my early 20s, if that like makes sense at all, yeah, no, I, I understand exactly what you mean and I think that's also kind of what made me a little bit miserable, because it was like you kind of fail at it for a while.

Kaylie Smith:

It's hard. It's hard to like grow up and also find a sense of um, your morale and like your, your the compass you have for morality, and things like that. Like I feel like it just felt like I was constantly failing at that until again, your frontal lobe develops, you get older and then you realize like there is an other side to things, like there's value in getting older, there's a value in like realizing that, um, you're capable of doing things, even if in that moment you really do not feel like you are, like you are capable of growing and to the exact person you want to be. And just because you're not that person when you're like young and youthful, it does not mean you're it's the end of your life, like, yes, genuinely, I, I tell people all the time I did not like college, I did not like my early twenties and like I met, I met my husband when I was 18.

Kaylie Smith:

He was my favorite part of college, like those years of my life. But both of us say all the time like thank God we grew together because like the rest of it kind of miserable, like it was not fun, like it's. You know what I mean. Like finding who you are is grueling work and I feel like, um, I feel like putting in that work is really important. But gosh, sometimes I'm just like thank God, like my thirties are on the corner, I feel like they're going to be great. I'm a lot more confident, I care a lot less Great.

Jordan:

Oh, that too. Yes, yes, because I yes, just yes, I haven't noticed that yep, like, whatever it's like when I think it is.

Kaylie Smith:

It is such a trap to care so much about what people think of you like, and I the older, I more like. Actually that's not really my business.

Jordan:

Like it, like doesn't matter, it's like not whether like that person, whatever they think it's, it's not to. I mean you have to kind of grow and like, learn this mindset, cause I would. I was definitely the people pleaser and I still am still trying to learn that to not be one of those, but I would get validation from other people. So if somebody else liked me, then I liked myself and that was. But then it was bad because if someone didn't like me, I hated myself. So it was like learning not to do that.

Jordan:

Yeah no, exactly.

Kaylie Smith:

There you go. That was a nice little life advice section.

Jordan:

Yes, it was Okay. So then the last question is what's one future goal that you would like to achieve, either long-term or short-term, and then this could be like in writing, bookish, or in your personal life too I think I would really like to get to a or in your personal life too.

Kaylie Smith:

Um, I think I would really like to get to a place in my career where I could support my husband going back to school or maybe even, um, like investing back into like my career and stuff. And I'll be he. He wants to be a trophy husband. So bad, that is his dream.

Jordan:

Oh my God, I love that trophy husband, so bad.

Kaylie Smith:

That is his dream. Oh, my god, I love that. I love that. That is his dream and I would love to give that to him. He is an angel literally everyone who knows. Like he's an angel and, um, he worked so hard to support me, especially when I started this career and stuff. Like he, he's worked so hard to get where he is. So I would just really love to make that dream of his come true. So my goal, my goal, is to honestly, yeah, just like, keep writing books and, um, growing them enough that I sort of I'm I'm able to, to do that for both of us. I also would really love to see my books be adapted in some way. I feel like that's like a bucket list, right, like that would be very fun.

Jordan:

Imagine like Phantasma is like a TV series, but I need like HBO to pick it up, like we need it to be like the best.

Kaylie Smith:

Yeah, yeah, yes, we budget. Yes, yes, no, I know, know, exactly. I would love that. I would also love to see like some piece of my work be animated someday. I love animation. I think it is an underutilized media for, like book adaptations too, so I feel like there's definitely like something in my repertoire that would be really fun to see animated.

Jordan:

but yeah, that would be cool. I honestly didn't even think of that.

Kaylie Smith:

I you can do so much, and also, animations are getting more adults now. So I'm like I'm just saying you don't have to worry about who we're casting if they're hot enough to be Blackwell or whoever. I think that that's always true. Yes, you just draw them that hot.

Jordan:

But then, like, the voice is very important.

Kaylie Smith:

I agree about make or break. For sure, for sure.

Jordan:

Yeah, wait, sorry Side note, have you seen how to Be Single? I think that with Dakota Johnson. Okay, so you saying your husband wants to be a trophy husband? It made me think of that one scene where she's like pregnant in the baby store and he's like, am I, am I the father? And she's like no, you're not the father. And then he, she, she was like, well, do you want to be a stay at home dad? And he's like, did I just win the lottery?

Kaylie Smith:

That made me think of that. I know, it's quite, quite literally. That is him in the way. That's like, um, I'm like, do you really want to stay at home? And like you just make me coffee and answer my emails. He's like, literally, I do not think of anything more fun and I'm like that is just so funny, like that's amazing. So, yeah, rooting for him, rooting for him for that win.

Jordan:

Yes, I will. I will root for him, too to be like that scene. Okay, so that's all the questions I had. Did you want? Is there anything else you wanted to talk about? Like I don't know if you wanted to like shout out, like anything.

Kaylie Smith:

Um, I don't know, I think I think I gave y'all all of my really fun, exciting news. You, if you would like to follow me and see my chaos in real time. Um, I am mostly active on Instagram, but sometimes I do make funny things on TikTok. Um, but every single platform you can find me as Kales Moon, k-a-y-l-s Moon. Um, everyone does think Moon is my last name. Probably should have thought about that when I chose the username, but I'm a Moon child, so it's fine.

Jordan:

I like the username, I like it, but it did it. It did take me a minute to find you when, yeah, but, but now I got it.

Kaylie Smith:

Now I got it, but like before I was just like all right, well, I can't use that, it's gone. But yeah, I love, I actually love Instagram. I know that's like such an unpopular opinion, but I enjoy it Like I, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like the aesthetics of it. I love that I can just post my little stories and chat with people. So I think I think that's pretty much it okay, um, and then that's all I have.

Jordan:

Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really really appreciate it.

Kaylie Smith:

I had so much fun interviewing you and just thank you thank you so much for having me genuinely and for reading my book like I appreciate it so much. This, this was wonderful. I will come back literally anytime, if you don't get sick of me.

Jordan:

Oh, I know I definitely will not and can't, and I just, I, I just, I'm obsessed, I'm obsessed and I can't wait for like anything and everything that you release and put out. I'm just, I'm so excited, I'm so excited for this like journey for you too, like that, truly amazing.

Kaylie Smith:

Thank you so much. Oh, my gosh.

Jordan:

Well, bye. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please feel free to rate and review us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen, and if there's any interviews or conversations you would like me to have with someone specific, please reach out either email or through our Instagram, available in the show notes and happy reading.