The Bookish Hour

Deep Dive into Dark Romance

• Jor & Fab • Season 2 • Episode 13

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Welcome to the dark side, we have cookies!

Remember when dark romance was about authentic storytelling rather than shock value? In this candid conversation, we examine how a genre we once loved has transformed into what we're calling "fast fashion fiction" – books written primarily to go viral rather than to tell meaningful stories with genuine emotional impact.

The marketing of dark romance has undergone a troubling shift, with trigger warnings now functioning as selling points rather than reader protection tools. "Look how extreme my book is!" has replaced "Here's the compelling story I've crafted." We discuss why this approach reduces complex narratives to mere shock value and why we've become increasingly selective about which dark romances deserve our time.

The conversation extends to practical considerations around trigger warnings: Should they appear at the front of books, potentially spoiling plot points? Or at the back, where readers can actively choose whether to view them? We advocate for a thoughtful middle path that respects both reader safety and storytelling integrity.

Whether you're a longtime dark romance reader frustrated with recent trends or simply curious about how publishing and social media virality intersect, this episode offers an unfiltered look at the state of a complex, evolving genre. Share your thoughts with us – do you agree the genre has become oversaturated, or are you finding hidden gems among the trend-chasers?

Cover Art by: Fabienne and Jordan
Contact email: thebookishhourpod@gmail.com
Intro/Outro music: Season Two: Ramaramaray by Aiyo via Epidemic Sound Season One: Sweet Psycho via TikTok’s Offical Sound Studio on Capcut
Follow Us:
Podcast: @thebookishhourpod
Fabienne: @oxonheart
Jordan: @sipsoffiction

Jordan:

welcome to the bookish hour with joran fob. Oh, silence, silence. I was like what did she say? What did she?

Fabienne:

say, oh no, I didn't say anything. I have to get back into it. I haven't like I haven't done this in a while like podcasting, because I've been people, people, people won't notice because there's like a weekly episode ever since January, of course yeah, but I haven't been actively doing podcasting any podcasting.

Jordan:

I think we lucked out granted, this will be in season two, but I think we lucked out for March because we decided to pull literally old episodes because they're classics and having them released in March, which is just so fitting. And then, but honestly, it helped us because, like I feel like we haven't been podcasting because you have been super busy, but like it was perfect timing for me because I've been kind of crazy, not in the same way you have, unfortunately, but it like worked out for both of us exactly, but do you want to talk about the one thing that was really fun for you?

Fabienne:

that was also really a busy period for you? I don't, I'm being really vague, but because I'm not really sure if you want to talk about on a podcast, yes or no well, okay.

Jordan:

so I think if people I don't know when episodes are coming out, but yes, this one, I will say I at this point it's gonna be like over a, but I got to go to Romantasy Book Con, which was so freaking fun and I had a blast and I got to meet so many authors that I loved and love. So do I obviously. That was. That was definitely my good week, even though that happened like two weeks ago at this point.

Fabienne:

So still counts.

Jordan:

Still counts. Yeah, we. I also have something that happened a while ago that I just want to say really quick and then we'll get into a good week. So I mean, I had a real go viral. Well, actually I don't really know what counts it going viral but I had, like I don't know if you remember my little goat reel.

Jordan:

That was, um, vaguely yes yeah, it was like when life's a dumpster fire, but I got my snacky snacks and my smutty smut to keep me company. Yes, so that one kind of went viral, but for whatever you count as going viral, but like, the highlight of it was, um, you know how, like when somebody like reshares, like reels, and you have like on the top of your like where I don't know what you would call it, but where you go visit the heart and you can see all the notifications, and then there's the circle of people resharing your stuff. So I saw that ruby dixon reshared that reel and I was like, oh, really highlight yeah oh, but that's so cool though right.

Jordan:

I thought that was so fun so I had to share that here. So it?

Fabienne:

was it also like, specifically like targeted to like one of her books, or was it just like a random coincidence that she was to reshared it?

Jordan:

no, I think she just like reshared it, like um reshared it on her stories right yeah, so fun I think.

Fabienne:

I think it's just like the notification center is that what it's called?

Jordan:

I mean it makes sense, but I have no idea what it's called, I think I think it's called, I think it's Notification Center.

Fabienne:

Yes, yeah, that's actually I'll dive into like my Goodweek thing, but it's actually an interesting point that you're bringing up because, like, what actually does count as something going viral, like, does it have to have like a 10k view? Are we talking like a 10k view? Are we talking a 100k view? Does it need to have a reshare count of plus 50?

Jordan:

Right, I guess I always just thought if you go viral, it has to hit a million. So that's why I was like I don't know, because it didn't hit a million, so I don't know if it counts as going viral. But you know, let me just Google what, what? Because now I'm curious what view count, what view count on a reel counts as going viral? Viral, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Fabienne:

Oh, I still need to find my going viral, viral, mm-hmm.

Jordan:

Generally, a Reel is considered viral when it reaches at least 100k views, with many considering this as the benchmark for significant exposure on Instagram Reels. However, the exact number can vary depending on the size of your account and how quickly the views accumulate. Okay, fair, oh, but then I'd say, yours definitely had gone viral.

Jordan:

Yes, but then there's like another one. So how many views are considered viral on Reels? Again, there's no fixed number, but considering Facebook and Instagram's popularity, an active user base, plus the addictive nature of Reelsels, you'll need at least three to four million views a week to consider a video viral. Oh, I don't think I understand what you're saying there. I'm gonna you know, I'm just gonna go with 100k, because then my reel went viral it did.

Fabienne:

It did 100k. Yes, virality, is virality a word or am I making stuff up?

Jordan:

virality, it sounds english it sounds like like a word that it sounds like singlish I don't, I don't think it is english, sounds like okay, it's fob's language.

Fabienne:

Okay, you're good, we're good, we're sorry, sorry it's fob's language, um, so I like, um, um, I wish, wow. I was reached out to by this new bookish company that's actually a dutch-based company. It's called time to read and they asked me if I wanted to be like an ambassador or like an influencer of sorts for the upcoming three months. And I was like, I was so taken by surprise because I haven't been so active like on Instagram and you know if I have been like, if I have been active. It was more like, you know, like, updates about the house, um, but they reached out and I said I would love to be a part of this program, because you know I be a part of this program, because you know I like to have, um, I like to, I guess, um, support companies that are like dutch grown also, because you don't really see that often um.

Fabienne:

But they said, uh, so we know that you're like, um, uh, busy now with, like the moving and, like you know, the um, renovating the new place. So we uh will reconvene this conversation or like, we will continue this conversation in march. And we did, and I sort of like, subscribed to their program and so what they called it and, um, I can expect a book that's catered to my interests in the upcoming week and then I received a book every like every. I think two um every well, every month then, because obviously like a three-month sort of like collaboration, but I receive a book each month and I have to review it for them and then obviously like make content for them. But that's really exciting.

Jordan:

That is so exciting. Oh my God, wait. So are they just a company that, like, sends out books to people based like? Did you fill out like a sheet of like what your?

Fabienne:

interests are yes.

Jordan:

Wait, I can't wait to see. You have to send me a picture of the first book.

Fabienne:

Like I have to make a few posts about it, like I have to make a story whenever it arrives.

Fabienne:

I have to do like an unboxing type of video, just like a review of the book. You know just little, just little snippets, and it's not even that content heavy in the sense of like what they're asking in return, but it's also just what sounds logic. You know, like they give you a book, you make content for it, because that's basically just the I guess, um, how do you say? Like the voluta of sorts? Um, in that sense, but I am really excited, I indeed had to fill out a form and, um, the book that I'm receiving or that I will receive is a blind date, so it's like wrapped in like a box and then, like the book itself is also wrapped in. I don't know, I'm really I'm really curious and I'm excited, and I don't know it gives like this entire um, I guess nook here behind me that you see now also like a little bit of purpose, because I can make Instagram content again for, like the bookish community and I'm really really so excited.

Jordan:

I was just gonna. I was just gonna say are you trying to get back into like posting book stuff? Yeah, that makes me so happy, I mean I loved your like I loved your content, like the running and like the home stuff, but like I'm kind of excited for you to get back into like the bookish world yeah, I will say that I like I said, like I said, I have to really get back into it.

Fabienne:

Um, so it won't be like a daily thing but it doesn't need to be no, but I, I just need to say that I now have time again to just, like, you know, unwind and just come back home and relax and not be constantly thinking of, oh, I have to fix this for the new place, because I am in a new place. I don't have to order this because you know, um, we're gonna. I don't know I have to buy bulbs because I need to hang up some lines. You know everything, technically speaking um, so I can just, like, come back from work and literally just sit on the couch and just do nothing.

Fabienne:

I didn't have that for the past couple of months because you were so busy. You know, like sure, that everything was in order. It does, but it also and you know it's fun because you're working towards something um, that's really, really worth it. But also, I really just also want to enjoy the house, you know, like to enjoy, like my free time, like to enjoy. I saw someone I also posted this on Instagram, ironically I saw someone post for real in which they said I have become a homebody, I am just going to enjoy my mortgage and I'm like you know what? That's what I'm going to do. That's what I'm going to do. Yeah, stay in and yeah.

Jordan:

And enjoy that shit.

Jordan:

Yes, enjoy that shit now that you talk about someone reaching out to you, I want, yeah, someone reached out to me like this, like okay, but like I don't want to say their name only because I haven't received the product yet, and I want to Only because I'll tell you afterwards. But as soon as I receive it and I post about it, then I'll come back and talk about it, but I will say it's a toy brand. They like reached out to me on Instagram and you know how sometimes they're like a little fishy because it will just be like hi username. Oh yeah, like sips of fiction.

Fabienne:

Question marks. Question mark.

Jordan:

Yeah. Or they're like, I've gotten a lot that are like oh, we'll give you a discount to buy our stuff, but then we want you to post about it. And I'm like, why would I do that? Like, I don't, I don't want your stuff to begin with. If you want to send me something, and if I like it, I'll share it. Or if we agree to something.

Jordan:

But, like, this company like reached out to me and was like hey, we love your content, like we love the spicy books, we think this toy will be perfect and your book content. And you see, like, do you notice? Literally everybody under the sun posts about Balessa. And it's not Balessa, it's not Balessa. Oh. And I'm like, but I'm, I literally get nothing. I'm nothing against people that post with the lesson, nothing against them. And especially if you're getting paid for it, like you do you, you get that. But I'm like.

Jordan:

I'm like, please stop posting with Plessa. I'm like so sick of seeing Plessa, like here, get $10 off or a free toy. I'm like, no, I'm not signing up. God damn it, it's a no for me. People actually, though, but like this one is, they don't want any of that. It's just like me posting with like said product and like the spicy books. But they said I can collab with them. So I'm kind of excited to have like my like picture or like my post on their feed. Yeah, I'm actually so freaking excited for it to come in and I can't. I don't want to really talk about it here so I have to tell you about it afterwards, but I'm like I like can't wait.

Fabienne:

You can't wait until, like it arrives, you have to make content for it. Or you can't wait to. You can't wait until it arrives and you have to make content for it, or you can't wait to arrive and test it out.

Jordan:

Oh, my gosh. Honestly, I don't want to say too much.

Fabienne:

No, I get that, but you're already saying way too much already actually.

Jordan:

But no one I know is following them, so like I don't think you would have ever heard of them until like clearly you know when I like post about it, you'll see like you'll know company small toy yeah or big impact? No, I'm just kidding, I don't know, so I need to just wait for it to come in, I'll have to like tell okay, I'm gonna leave it at that, and you know that once I post about it I definitely will come on here and talk about it more.

Jordan:

But it's just like it's weird that I'm excited for you too, like, uh, like a second hand type of like excitement I think I'm like actually so excited just because, like this is something like I haven't had anybody like reach out to me outside of like the book world. Like people are like hey, I want to send you my book or a free book, or like whatnot but like this is like the first time someone's actually.

Jordan:

Well, no, I did do a coffee brand but that coffee or a free book or like whatnot. But like this is like the first time someone's actually.

Fabienne:

Well, no, I did do a coffee brand, but that coffee was shit. I was just about to say like, wasn't that like with mushrooms or something like a mushroom type of coffee? Oh shit.

Jordan:

No that that coffee was good. I got like a different coffee, like Javi, javi, and that was shit. Yes, oh, but right, yes, oh, but the mushroom coffee was good. They, they, they were cool. They were cool and they didn't expect any content. Where javi wanted content, the mushroom coffee was like hey, we just want to send this to you for free, like sure thing and I was like okay, um, but this one okay.

Jordan:

So then, aside from those like this is like the first one, that was like I want to send you this, like package.

Fabienne:

Sorry, yes, yes, okay, so, and interesting, interesting, yes, yes, I would like a fully detailed review.

Jordan:

A fully detailed report once received. I'm like I I can't I got. I'll have to tell you afterwards because there's so many things I want to say, but then I feel like it's giving it too much away and I don't know I get that no I'm gonna wait oh, I get that okay I get that do you have anything else?

Fabienne:

fab. Uh, no, no, I think we should uh dive, right into it I mean that, do a deep dive into dark romance. Yeah, I'm yeah, I actually that was sort of I wanted to find like a segue, because I always try to find one, but better way to do it? From toys to dark deep dive, never mind. Yes, dark romance, deep dive. Um, I will say that I did not do any homework, so I'm just gonna do it all from the top of my head yes, I think.

Jordan:

No, I like well, so like, the reason why I wanted to talk about this was actually because I've noticed some people like sharing reels. At this point it's been like a month or so since people have been sharing reels, but I feel like it's still very much pertains to even now and I've like talked about it like with different people in like this community about like dark romance as a whole. I think, because dark romance has grown so much, especially with like dark romantic comedies and things like that, that I hate. Like the one of the big things I hate is that dark romance is now being marketed through their trigger warnings, and that's like the one of the one, one of like the first things I wanted to bring up with you is like, what are your thoughts on dark romance being marketed through its trigger warnings in the book? Like oh, look, here is two pages worth of trigger warnings.

Fabienne:

You should read my book um, I think a trigger warning is exactly what it is. It's a trigger warning and it should not be seen as a guide as to why someone should read a book. I understand why it's, you know, like put up front, um, as like an ingredient of sorts, like off the book, like, hey, this happens in my book. Um, you decide whether you want to read it or not. I think that's like an entirely different approach already, as is, but no, I think it's a weird, weird marketing strategy to do that.

Fabienne:

I would say just keep you know, like stick to the tropes. Stick to, maybe. Well, the thing is now that I'm thinking thinking about it too like what do people now consider? Like where do people draw the line like what is a trigger warning and what to consider like trope, like a trigger warning could also. I will say that. I will say this, though a trigger warning could also be seen as a trope, or vice versa. But to have like an entire list of things that are triggering, that are actually like mentally, physically triggering to some people, um, that is like a different list.

Jordan:

You should not use that as a marketing trick no, I don't think if you have it on the trigger warning page. This is my thoughts. I think whatever you have on the trigger warning page should not be used as a marketing ploy and I think but those are like the, like a trigger warning. I feel like the point of a trigger warning is for the reader to know what is in the book.

Jordan:

Maybe this is not the book for you if you will be triggered by it, like, and I think I think, like like the big, I mean like anything that's like here's a trigger warning, but like anything that has rape or sexual assault or non-consensual intimate moments, like there's, like those things I think should be listed in a trigger warning and that should be available to the reader to know if it's something that they should read. But I feel like a lot of people, I think, especially in the dark romance world, they do want books that have that, and I think it's just gotten gotten and I think it's just gotten, it's just been I don't know how to word it but I think authors have realized that people are reading books because it has X, y and Z. So now they think that they should market the book that way, which I don feel that they should, but those are my own personal thoughts and I also have, like, different thoughts on like. Do you think a trigger warning page should be at the front of a book?

Fabienne:

oh, I was waiting for like the or segment. The thing is I don't read trigger warnings because I have the privilege of not, of like not. You know Having any yeah or like not. I don't want to say that. But obviously, but I skip mostly oh wait, it's not making it no wait, I'm not making any sense.

Fabienne:

I actually I I think like from uh, objective type of standpoint, I would say, yes, put it up at the front. Or like have a page where you dedicate, or like explain something to your possible reader and say, if you don't want to be, but then again, there you go, like if you don't want to be spoiled, some people like put like qr codes like on their page and then you have to scan it. Then it links you back to a website well.

Jordan:

So what I think is I? Because I agree with you, because I think sometimes trigger warnings can be a spoiler in a way for certain like certain trigger warnings, so I can understand why some people might not want a trigger warning. I tend to it's like it's weird. I don't. I haven't been reading anything super dark, so I know anything that I pick up isn't going to have anything that maybe something that I can't handle. Trigger wise, um, but I don't necessarily love it in the beginning of the book. I do think it should still be in the book and I but I think it should be in the back being like I have, like the author has, should have a note being like I have a list of triggers. It's in the back of the book, so please flip to the back if you want to read that list. Otherwise, please continue.

Fabienne:

But like, just like note that it is there in the book, because I have seen people mention that, so you don't like wait, quick question so you don't like accidentally skip over it or like skim over it if it's on the same page as that same explanation well, I, in the sense I agree with you.

Jordan:

Like I, I don't want it in the beginning, because I don't want it to necessarily spoil something for me, because I have seen trigger warnings that have essentially spoiled the book for me, which I mean I still open the book and read it. I mean I still read the book and it's like whatever, but I almost wish that the trigger warning was in the back so I couldn't have accidentally read it. Yeah, but it's still there for ease Cause. Like I don't. I don't totally love the idea of the QR code to a website or to go check out my website. I think it should be a little bit more available to the reader, especially if it's like a book that you would buy in a bookstore too. Like I think the reader should be able to just like check out the first few pages Okay, see that it's in in the back, and then can look in the back to see if the book is for them or not.

Jordan:

But I don't think it. That's why I don't think a book should be marketed by its trigger warnings. I don't think, and usually I don't know like I feel like the main triggers should just be the what is in the back of the book. But like, like even a miscarriage, or like the loss of, like a pregnancy loss, like I think that can be a very heavy trigger. So like that should be definitely something, but like that's also that could be a spoiler, especially if it's not a surprise pregnancy like I.

Jordan:

Like I can see that being a spoiler in a book if it's you don't know that the person's going to be pregnant, so like those sort of things. But I definitely think that is something that should be a trigger in a trigger warning in the book, so like. But again, I think it should be at the end, because it's like like that, that wouldn't be like a trigger for me, but like someone that's trying to get pregnant that's had a bunch of miscarriages, that could be a trigger for them. So I think there is like. I think it like should be handled like in a maybe a different way well more delicately, that's yeah for starters.

Fabienne:

That's one for starters yeah also it shouldn't be.

Fabienne:

I also feel more like if you have I also sometimes see like trigger warnings and then you have like bullet lists, like bullet points, like it's listed, I would say people consider that more tropes and people like the authors, like editors or whatever, who decided to have it like in that format in their book, whether it's like, um, when people add it to the book in a like, a like, like listed, then I'd say the approach from the author standpoint used as tropes. But if you have a more written out page where it's like I don't want to say dedication because that's not the right word, but like an explanation of source, like okay, this is a trigger warning this book can take like heavy themes such as explanation of sorts, like okay, this is a trigger warning this book contains.

Fabienne:

Like heavy themes such as umbrella terms you know yeah, exactly, then I feel it's more respectfully done too, and not so as in like thrown in there as hey. This book contains y and z, and this is why you should not, or should, read it. It's, I don't know, it's. It's an interesting point actually that I don't know. I want to say something.

Jordan:

I lost it. Next point, which we can like dive all around, was because I feel like these trigger warnings are what authors are using to market their book. Being like this is what my dark romance has and it's like da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Here's a list of it.

Jordan:

I feel like people have talked about books going viral as we talk about viral in our introduction, but I think the books that are going viral are these books that are being marketed for trigger warnings Like oh, you love non-consensual, intimate scenes, like okay, here we go, and that's just one. But I do think non-consensual needs to be a trigger warning. I just don't think you should market your book that way. But I also feel like they put in a ton, a ton more trigger warnings that I don't think should be listed as trigger warnings. But those seem to be the books that go viral, but they're not like that great.

Jordan:

I don't know how to word this. I feel like authors just want to go viral so they can sell books, and I understand that. Like authors write books to sell them because it's their business and they need to make money. They're kind of like how we need to make money too, but I I hate that. I feel like every author's goal now is to go viral instead of just writing a good book. Yeah, we're, but I also understand like, and maybe those books.

Fabienne:

Following up question that just okay, it's like popping up in my head right now. Do you think, because people want to go viral, people really want to make it like you know, they want to be um, they want to be like the next brin weaver.

Jordan:

Like how butcher and blackbird went, bird went viral you know what I mean, so I think like are these?

Fabienne:

this is obviously like it's not even. Ah christ, how do I wear this?

Jordan:

it's like this is actually too much like a bitch um no, let's, let's let you know. Remember, we started this podcast knowing that we're not true, we're not making friends no, true.

Fabienne:

And we also like uploaded uh, too long ago. Why we hate the books that we, you know, like the unpopular opinion, the ones I know remember how.

Jordan:

So I actually made sorry side note. I made a note in that episode at the bottom being like this because I I forgot that the intro is basically us talking about holidays so so I had to put a note being like this episode came from the previous podcast because we never edited it out. But I was like, oh, this works so that way for future episodes. It like fits. But I went with that, went with that title, just because I thought that title would pull the most traction, because I was gonna remember the first time we released it it was unpopular opinions. But I thought that title would pull the most traction Because I was going to remember the first time we released it it was unpopular opinions, but I think that was like too nice. So I was like people are going to want to know like what books did we hate? Yeah, so like I went with sorry, but no no.

Jordan:

Okay, what were you talking about before that?

Fabienne:

Girl? I have no idea. No, I do know. Okay, then what were you talking about before that girl? I have no idea. No, but like they, um no, it was, it was more because also just dark romance as a genre. I feel like and I think that we have talked about this no, I definitely know that we have talked about this before too like because everyone thinks they can write dark romance because of all the tropes, because of all the trigger warnings. But hey, you can, you can write it, I can write it, you know what, sure, you be creative. Sorry, but like the entire genre is so like over- Saturated now Saturated.

Fabienne:

Yes, yes.

Jordan:

Like I think, I think, but I think it's because so I remember like over ten years ago no, no, no, ten years ago, no, no, no, 10 years ago, nine years ago like I was like dark romance wasn't a thing. But I know I read books that were dark romance because I remember, like I picked up my first ammo jones book oh, yep like back in, like 2016, and yeah, I loved her books, but you didn't know it was dark romance then.

Jordan:

But you're reading, like, looking back, I'm like, oh, yeah, that was definitely dark romance, but I liked it better then and then I would. I I feel like people weren't writing books to go viral, they were just writing books that they wanted to write, or because I do think there is like. I do think that outside of dark romance, there is that cookie cutter romance that everybody wants, like it follows the same same, like yes, where it's like main characters meet, they fall, they like get together, there's some type of conflict, they fall in love the end, and I think there are people out there that want that. So I think those authors just need to find their readers. But I feel like dark romance doesn't necessarily always have to have that cookie cutter recipe definitely not.

Jordan:

I think that's what, what sets the genre apart yeah, but I think that's like where the like struggle like kind of comes from, because I think the everybody that comes into it, whether they're the cookie cutter ones or not, don't really know where the dark romance genre is in, like their mind. I don't know how this is like not coming out how I want to say it.

Fabienne:

Take your time. We have an hour, as the title of this podcast suggests.

Jordan:

That is true, that is true. But I just think that, like, I don't even know. I don't even know, but I just hate where. I hate where the dark romance genre has gone to. I hate where we're at right now in dark romance. I don't like, I'm very selective.

Jordan:

I actually I had a conversation with my best friend this like past weekend when I saw her, but I told her that I don't really read dark romance anymore. But I know too that like the reason why we like started this whole podcast which we've talked about so much. But I think we just the dark romance genre because it's gotten so big. And I think we just the dark romance genre because it's gotten so big and I think it definitely got really big during like quarantine and all that as books just got big in general. But I think they they're just not the same. I think people are trying to write dark romance to go viral to they all like, instead of they all want to cross this line, to like the extreme and we just like read it and we're like, what the fuck did we just read like.

Jordan:

I think that's like a very big thing, which comes back to like why authors are marketing their dark romances through the trigger warnings because like oh like, see all the shit that happens in my book, which I think, in a way, what you're saying is trope wise, like you can't fit all those tropes into one book without it being garbage and everybody wanting it to go viral. Like people are writing these dark romances almost like it's like fast fashion. You're just picking it up to consume it, to throw it away.

Fabienne:

I think that's exactly where most of these books go wrong. They're just writing these books for the sake of selling it. You got to earn your money, you got to make your bread. You got to get food on the table. I get that, but it's also if you write a story, make sure it's good.

Jordan:

It's so tough because I remember going. I okay. So I went to a conference a long time ago for writers and I'm not going to dive into why I was at that conference, but I was um, we will dive into it with me after.

Jordan:

Yes, I will, but there were. The opening presentation was basically like you need to figure out what kind of writer you're going to be, and there were three points you write what you want to write, so you write the story that you want to tell, want to tell. Then there was you write for business, so you're writing to make money. And then she mentioned something else that I can't remember, but I think the first two it's almost like kind of like where these authors are like they're writing to make money but it's like writing to go viral so they make a lot of money.

Jordan:

But I feel like as a reader, I don't want that. Like I don't want that viral book. Like I want a book that is like so good that I like scream from the rooftops. And if it just happens to be something that's gone viral in the sense of like, I'm thinking of like fantasy, sarah j maas those books are so good, like no wonder people are talking about them and they've gone viral. But that's because the story's so good, not just viral because of some spicy quote that the author posted or somebody, some influencer posted.

Jordan:

And now you have to like read this dark romance where I feel like a lot of these, like contemporary, not dark romances don't necessarily go viral. I mean, I guess some, no, I think it's really just like the dark romance genre. And then there are contemporary romances that, like the authors, are just big, like I'm thinking, well, I won't dive into any names. But there are contemporary romances that are just like bigger authors but, I think, like a specific dark romance, like book, these authors are trying to get their book to go viral yeah, have you ever noticed that it's also mostly the same type of person who writes these books?

Jordan:

what do you mean by that?

Fabienne:

I actually can't say this on the podcast. I actually can't say this on the podcast. So I'm not talking about, like, hirama Jones, I'm not talking about your KV Rose Montage, you know. I'm just talking about the oversaturated books, like like I just mentioned, like the people who are writing the books because they think they can write it.

Jordan:

And yeah, I can, can't, I cannot say this on the podcast okay, fair, fair, but I have, but it's, it's the same type of people. I feel like there's a difference too. I think there's a difference between, like the good stories or the authors that you know they had a story in mind and here it is, but then there's, it's okay, it's. This is for the authors that notice a trend and then they try to just write that trend, whether it's like stalkers, stalker romances, dark romances, like all of these things that are just like get hot for a second. Authors try to jump on that trend and then they like, essentially, I think flop, because it's exactly what I was saying before it's fast fashion. So when you try to jump on, when the trend goes up, like the trend's already going down by the time you get the book out, so like you've missed your opportunity, because it's like gone, like I don't see any dark cowboy romances anymore because I think the trend is fast fashion. Except I do think there's like the authors that started.

Jordan:

So I think, like pam goodwin's, I think I actually it nodded, I think it's the first one, but I've heard, but, like I think, pam goodwin's an amazing writer, so I think these amazing writers start the trend and then it's all these other people that follow it. That exactly, and I think that exactly. And I think it kind of, instead of like writing their own story, they're trying to hop on to a trend that's already come and gone by the time they get their book out. Mm, hmm, so is this where I should tell you I'm writing a dark romance? I'm just kidding.

Fabienne:

And I'm going to log off a dark romance. I'm just kidding and I'm gonna log off yeah, no, just kidding if you are, you do you. But if you are making your trigger warnings a trope list, I know where you live, I know your address so I'll, I'll come find you yeah, please do, because I think I I can't.

Jordan:

No, absolutely not. It's so tough because I feel like some of these authors, they just they are like I do agree, like there should be no kink shaming, like don't yuck someone else's yum and whatnot, but like no, I feel like there's also like there's also like a vague border, like there is a line there, some things you should keep to yourself, some things should just not be written.

Fabienne:

You shouldn't be writing it just for the sake of writing it, because you're sort of vague.

Jordan:

Yes, and then I think it's like these people are trying to cross this like line, but they're like crossing way over, not like towing it, they're like crossing way over it. They're like crossing way over, not like towing it, they're like crossing way over it, but like. These are the people that are trying to get their book to go viral instead of just writing the story that, like, they want to write. I think that's the tough part for us, because I feel like there's probably people out there that want that story that's gone viral. They want to read that story. I think we're just at the stage we're at and we just want a good fucking story.

Jordan:

Like we want a story that authors want to tell and like I think, and and in a way, genuine stories, the authentic ones yes, and in a way I think we can tell the difference between the author that is just trying to go viral and then the author that's telling the story that they want to tell yeah yeah, and that's where it's at.

Jordan:

I'm like thinking like people specifically, but I don't want to say like their names right now, but like I I've like even just like the people that like their story is like the story they want to tell do you have a dark romance book that you think was really shitty because of all these, uh, all of these things that we just talked about?

Jordan:

I'm like thinking of one. It was like a dark cowboy like I had. It was like okay and I had a good like I read it. It did become repetitive, but it was like one of those ones that I was like it's not horrible, but what it's not? It was not good but I, I did. I it got to the point it was definitely more erotica. So like I definitely started, ended up skimming it. I didn't know it was going to be erotica when I like started it and then I mean I should have known by like chapter three, there was like spicy scenes, whatever but I still like.

Fabienne:

Was it not in a trigger warnings by any chance?

Jordan:

no, but they definitely. She definitely markets through trigger warnings, and I don't want to say it on here but I'll. I mean I'm sure you can kind of guess, like so I'm gonna be the only bitchy person on this podcast today.

Jordan:

Thanks, it's fine it's fine I'll take one for the team but I feel like I mean, when I read it, I like I guess I was in the mood for it, I don't know, it's just. I finished it being like okay, this definitely seemed like a book that was like trying to go viral, and I think she's like one of the ones that did go viral, like she wrote like a cow.

Jordan:

She was like, I mean pam goodwin godwin I don't, actually don't know her name godwin, yeah godwin okay, like I think she's the one that started dark cowboy romances, which I kind of want to read that. Maybe not right now, but like I think her is like kind of what like started it, but like I think hers is super old like she started it, like without realizing she started it like I feel like I need to figure out, but this one that I read had just maybe been out for a couple months, so it was definitely one that was like happening, happening, happening on the trend.

Fabienne:

Yes, see, there it goes again. The trend is actually not a good thing. Um wait, we also. No, not not we. You actually mentioned how dark romance has like been on the rise, so to say, like the past few years, especially during the quarantine um days. Why do we think that is? Why was dark romance so up and coming then?

Jordan:

I don't. I think it's honestly. I think it's more so because the I think it's the same thing of like why Romantasy grew. I think just so many people were reading during quarantine that it was more than just like what was available in like a bookstore. Like self-published authors and indie authors were big before because I read them before, yeah, but I think it was definitely more of your contemporary, lighter romances, where I think some people did write dark romance but was not marketed as dark romance but like, looking back, I could see them as dark romances, but I think because they weren't big. But then, as people are reading, they're like testing their boundaries and I think they're diving into like darker things. Now they're liking those type of things. Authors are seeing that and I feel like we saw so many like readers become authors and I think which I think is awesome I don't think anybody.

Jordan:

I think if you want to write a book, you should write a fucking book Like you get you write that goddamn book. Am I going to read it Depends. Is it a book that you wanted to write or is it a book you're trying to go viral? But I think it just. I think everything blew up in the book world when COVID and quarantine happened just because nobody had anything to do besides watch TV, read. So I think like that kind of started it all because even like I feel like romanticism grew to like a crazy amount that I think massively but I do think it's becoming oversaturated too, like that's in its own thing.

Fabienne:

I agree. Different discussion, different episode, yes yes, so yeah that's how I feel. So back to the first question at hand. Do we think that trigger warnings should be used as a selling point? No, should they be in the front? No, should they be in the back? Yes, yes, I do.

Jordan:

I do think they should be in the book. I don't think they should like be something that you should have to go to a website. I think they should still be in the book. I just think they should be in the back. So if you don't want to be spoiled, you can not be spoiled, but if you're someone that like wants to know, you can actively go to the back of the book and see it.

Fabienne:

That's me. Just make a note of it, like in your author's note.

Jordan:

You know, like that this is an X Y C book and if you know, like, make it like either triggers yeah, like, right before the dedication, right after the dedication, authors know like, hey, this book contains heavy themes. If you want to see the full list, head to the back of the book. If you're one that you would feel that it's a spoiler, then please continue on, but just know that there are triggers to this book, and I think that's all you need to say. So then let the reader decide if that's something that they want to and I don't. And like, on that note, if you did not look at the trigger list and then you rate a book one star because it has, let's say, something that you're not okay with, I don't think you should be rating that book because you didn't look to see that it has a trigger warning of xyz, like I think that. But that's also something completely different like, like, let's say, the book has, like, rape in it. Is it different?

Jordan:

or just like plain stupid like, oh, like I don't, but yeah not you not you, no, no, I'm saying that the person that picks up a book and reads a book and rates it two stars because there's rape in it, I think that's not OK, because you should have seen that there was a trigger warning that said that had rape in this book. So I know I agree.

Fabienne:

Oh no, I agree. I just meant to say that, if you like and it didn't, didn't didn't come out right. Bottom line here is that this person who is reviewing that based on not having read the trigger warnings, but saying that it was stupid because of a trigger that they did not read, then they're just plain stupid.

Jordan:

Oh, agreed, but I think, if, if I think you should not be rating rating it, then I think you should be Saying that the book wasn't for you and leave it unrated, because I think you're pulling down the author's rating based on something that you should have known before you went into the book.

Fabienne:

Yeah, I agree.

Jordan:

I agree, cool into the book? Yeah, I agree, I agree, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Yeah, but I think, well, well, okay, so do you find yourself like, will you, can, I know like we kind of stepped out of dark romance, but do you think you would continue reading dark romance, just like you're kind of picking and choosing which books you want to read?

Fabienne:

Yes, but I'm highly selective. Like I will stick to my safe dark romance author.

Fabienne:

Like the ones you know, yeah, yeah, because I know that I won't be disappointed. I know where their heart said when it comes to their stories. They're like genuine, authentic stories. They take into account the trigger warnings as actual things, as yep, um. They're not all over the top tropes, they're just like your general dark romance tropes, because what makes a dark romance is x, y and z, and those are the tropes. Um, I, if I find another book that looks interesting to me and it says that is like that it is a darker type of romance, or, like you know, with the dark themes, I will do my research first. Definitely, yeah, yeah, yeah. So no, I definitely will read it still and I and I actually um, but just very more.

Jordan:

I almost want to say meticulously, um, but it's more like I am doing it yeah, I feel like I'm more inclined to pick up a dark romance, especially if it's older, from a new author. To me, like looking at that Pam Goodwin one, the Dark Cowboy, like that first book released in 2018. So it's like I feel like that's before the dark romance genre really took off. But I think also Pam Goodwin is just like an amazing writer, so I think that's different.

Fabienne:

Oh yeah, she's good.

Jordan:

She's so good. So I think I'm like but there's a couple dark romances that I think are older that I want to read. But I've never read that like author before, but I have been seen. I have seen Insatiable by Lee Rivers. I think she's kind of one that's been like blowing up and I started reading insatiable. I'm not too far but I've kind of like put it down and picked it up. I'm like I don't know how I feel about it, but I'm not. It's definitely a dark romance but it doesn't seem to be one. That's like she's marketing it based off trigger warnings. Um, and it seems to be more of a story than um then are more of a story she wanted to tell yeah, so sorry for that. Leo wants to tell yeah, um, just like one that's trying to go viral we should.

Fabienne:

We could make a 2.0 type of episode based off like based off this one where we will discuss like older dark romance books that don't really circulate now in like the pool, you know, like the current pool um, and like revive those stories that should get more attention, as opposed to all the things that just like sprouting out of the ground right now I'm kind of here for that so stay tuned.

Jordan:

No kidding, we still have to record that episode um yeah, but but maybe that's something coming um, I'm gonna write it down in the notes I like it, but do you have anything else for this deep dive into dark romance?

Fabienne:

actually no, I think I said everything that I wanted. I think I said everything people are not canceling me after having an opinion.

Jordan:

I don't think they should, but I really never know I still like you.

Fabienne:

I hope you still like me. No kidding, well, no, not kidding, but I yeah, sort of um, I should just stop talking I still like you. Thank you I still, like you too, I don't know where the next step from.

Jordan:

I don't know either, but I like it.

Fabienne:

Okay, wait, wait, bye. Thank you so much for listening.

Jordan:

And please don't forget to rate and review wherever you can find us.

Fabienne:

So catch you next time.

Jordan:

Bye.